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07:20 #dri-devel: < MrCooper> soreau: the timing of when the event is sent isn't well-defined, only that the timestamp in the event corresponds to end of vblank / start of scanout
07:21 #dri-devel: < MrCooper> Company: I haven't
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07:23 #dri-devel: < soreau> MrCooper: I'd expect it's a bit more precise, considering its purpose
07:23 #dri-devel: < soreau> maybe it works slightly differently on different hw/drivers
07:24 #dri-devel: < mripard> pq, emersion: if you trust daniels enough that's fine by me :)
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07:25 #dri-devel: < MrCooper> soreau: the purpose is mostly in the timestamp and signalling completion, not the timing of the event itself
07:26 #dri-devel: < soreau> well the docs could do with a bit of clarification on that front
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10:25 #dri-devel: < pq> soreau, FYI, Intel at least used to send page-flip complete events slightly ahead of time, meaning that their completion timestamp is in the future. This is expected and correct. The timestamp is well-defined, the event emission is not.
10:26 #dri-devel: < pq> too bad bjorn quit already
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10:31 #freedesktop: < pq> Lyude, isn't mfilion on the board, why would he be a guest in the BoD meeting?
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10:57 #dri-devel: < soreau> pq: where is the documentation outlining this though?
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11:29 #dri-devel: < pq> most likely there isn't, like for kernel UAPI in general
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11:35 #dri-devel: < pq> I cannot even find the definition for the timestamp in docs.kernel.org
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11:45 #dri-devel: < soreau> perhaps the key definition is page-flip
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12:17 #dri-devel: < MrCooper> mattst88: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/mesa/piglit/-/merge_requests/1215 broke piglit spec@arb_clear_texture@arb_clear_texture-float here with radeonsi on amd64
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12:50 #dri-devel: < MrCooper> daniels: re your post in the "[PATCH RFC 06/25] drm/connector: hdmi: Add VTEM EMP generation", does enabling VRR signalling on the HW link and forcing maximum refresh rate result in measurably higher power draw compared to no VRR signalling with identical mode timings? (Wouldn't have expected that)
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13:00 #wayland: < linkmauve> Hi, would it make sense to extend wp_single_pixel_buffer_manager_v1 with float colours, for use with colour management?
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13:01 #wayland: <@emersion> the uint32s already represent floats
13:04 #wayland: < linkmauve> emersion, no:
13:04 #wayland: < linkmauve> - UINT32_MIN = 0% of the given color component
13:04 #wayland: < linkmauve> - UINT32_MAX = 100% of the given color component
13:04 #wayland: <@pq> Yeah, I cannot immediately think how actual floats on the wire would help things. The integers should have plenty of precision already.
13:04 #wayland: < linkmauve> That means it can only represent from 0.0 to 1.0.
13:04 #wayland: <@pq> yes
13:04 #wayland: <@pq> I don't see that limiting anything.
13:05 #wayland: < linkmauve> The benefits of f16 formats is that you can represent brighter colours than 1.0.
13:05 #wayland: <@pq> Not really. You can have the same with a different image description, too.
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13:05 #wayland: < linkmauve> And perhaps darker colours than 0.0, although I’m less sure of why that would be useful.
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13:06 #wayland: < zamundaaa[m]> "0.0" and "1.0" are meaningless
13:06 #wayland: < zamundaaa[m]> You can make both represent any kind of color and luminance
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13:08 #wayland: <@pq> If you can make a case where you need two surfaces to match their image descriptions and one of them uses a 16F buffer and the other must be a single_pixel_buffer, then perhaps you have a case. OTOH, you could just make another 16F buffer.
13:08 #wayland: < oeuaoeuoeu[m]> pq: It means you cannot exercise scRGB paths with spb.
13:08 #wayland: < oeuaoeuoeu[m]> https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland-protocols/-/merge_requests/395 fixes this.
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13:09 #wayland: <@pq> oh, for testing compositors. Hmm.
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13:10 #wayland: <@pq> "remaining incomplete" seems fine to me.
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13:11 #wayland: <@pq> you cannot reasonably use spb to generally replace pixel buffers anyway when you need lots of independent pixels
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13:14 #dri-devel: < mattst88> MrCooper: thanks for letting me know. I'll have a look today
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13:24 #dri-devel: < MrCooper> ty
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13:32 #wayland: < oeuaoeuoeu[m]> You cannot even use it to replace a buffer that contains only a single pixel.
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14:00 #wayland: < swick[m]> ofc you can. just not with arbitrary image descriptions.
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14:01 #wayland: < oeuaoeuoeu[m]> You cannot replace a 1x1 floating point buffer with a spb.
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14:01 #wayland: < swick[m]> if you change the image description you absolutely can
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14:04 #wayland: < oeuaoeuoeu[m]> So it's not a drop in replacement.
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14:40 #wayland: < oeuaoeuoeu[m]> Re varlink. I don't remember if https://uapi-group.org/specifications/specs/varlink/#passing-file-descriptors was discussed at the time. Unfortunately this seems worse than not having any file descriptor support at all, since now there are varlink APIs that rely on conventions that cannot be enforced automatically by code generators. And since the varlink wire protocol is itself not versioned, it seems burned now. It would need some
14:40 #wayland: < oeuaoeuoeu[m]> out-of-band messaging to indicate that a socket speaks varlink 2.0 that has proper support for file descriptors passing.
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16:45 #dri-devel: < daniels> MrCooper: ah, not with identical timings, but my read of the amdgpu freesync_on_desktop mode and what the NV person was saying is that they’ll go higher - you presumably wouldn’t enable VRR at 60Hz?
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16:59 #wayland: < SkyeSoss[m]> <oeuaoeuoeu[m]> "Re varlink. I don't remember..." <- Right now there’s a convention that (fooFileDescriptor: int) is an integer index into the list of file descriptors sent along with the request. That would be something useful to state explicitly for code generators though.
16:59 #wayland: < SkyeSoss[m]> And the general concept is that versioning isn’t needed here because “methods that require the file descriptors require newer clients” is the same concept as “new keys can be added as long as they’re optional”.
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17:21 #freedesktop: < Lyude> pq: oops! thank you for pointing that out, I meant to put their name in the absent section not guests
17:21 #freedesktop: < Lyude> Will send a correction today
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17:51 #wayland: < oeuaoeuoeu[m]> > the list of file descriptors sent along with the request
17:51 #wayland: < oeuaoeuoeu[m]> the code generator has no idea how many file descriptors are sent with a requets
17:51 #wayland: < oeuaoeuoeu[m]> * > the list of file descriptors sent along with the request
17:51 #wayland: < oeuaoeuoeu[m]> the code generator has no idea how many file descriptors are sent with a requets
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17:56 #wayland: < oeuaoeuoeu[m]> I have zero investment in varlink so I see little need to add more hacks on top of it. If the spec that I linked wanted to bolt support for file descriptors on top of it, it should have done so properly. Why not just define a new format that works properly for unix based systems from the start? That also removes any chance that applications get confused by various conventions.
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17:59 #wayland: < orowith2os> using a transport-specific feature in a protocol that was intentionally designed to be transport-generic was a mistake
17:59 #wayland: < oeuaoeuoeu[m]> Varlink was designed from the start to be a protocol that works over the web and such with everything being sent inline. The decision to not be a full-fledged unix transport was intentional and is justified in the spec. Why try to use it for something that it was explicitly not designed for?
17:59 #wayland: < oeuaoeuoeu[m]> orowith2os: We had the same thought it seems.
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18:01 #wayland: < orowith2os> I dislike dbus for certain reasons, just as I dislike the Wayland IPC (and xml defined) protocol and would dislike varlink (pipewire and a couple others excluded due to not touching them), but it does kind of suck that things are Not Great in this way 
18:02 #wayland: < orowith2os> something something hindsight is 20/20 and we should all go back to living on settlements in the forest like elves 
18:03 #wayland: < oeuaoeuoeu[m]> Wayland IPC is the best IPC I've ever worked with. Its structure makes it easy to implement very fast parsers and formatters for it. The only two downsides are that the fixed-sized portion of variable-sized messages are not at fixed positions and that you might need more dynamic dispatch than with compound messages.
18:04 #wayland: < orowith2os> I think one problem I have with Wayland (though this can be more at the xml level) is not defining any sort of object lifetimes, and it can make using it from something like Rust annoying.
18:05 #wayland: < oeuaoeuoeu[m]> pipewire IPC is undocumented so it's hard to say anything good about it. It's very hard to work with since messages are not specified anywhere but are parsed and formatted ad-hoc in the pipewire source code.
18:06 #wayland: < oeuaoeuoeu[m]> dbus could be good if it 1) had a better type system and 2) didn't have variable types that require sending type signatures in band.
18:07 #wayland: < oeuaoeuoeu[m]> orowith2os: I don't know what you mean by that. HTTP GET/POST/PUT/DELETE requests don't define any object lifetimes either. Does that make HTTP hard to use from rust?
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18:07 #wayland: < orowith2os> fair I suppose.
18:08 #wayland: < orowith2os> I mean more like defining objects tied to another object's lifetime (like a surface role for a wl_surface) and that when the surface dies, whether the surface role's object dies too or it's just inert 
18:09 #wayland: < orowith2os> instead of having that be in a text explanation, that should be at the type level 
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18:10 #wayland: < zamundaaa[m]> Having an actual standard object extension mechanism would be nice
18:10 #wayland: < oeuaoeuoeu[m]> orowith2os: Defining request preconditions is another matter and would help with writing protocol fuzzers. Its not tied to object lifetimes but also affects things such as "a shm buffer must be created in-bounds of its shm pool".
18:11 #wayland: < orowith2os> on a sitenote, nothing stops wp_content_type_v1::type from being turned into a bitfield, right? It would be nice to extend that protocol to be used for more general hints like "oh, this protocol also is used for presentations, but right now it's displaying a video in that presentation"
18:11 #wayland: < zamundaaa[m]> orowith2os: It can't be done without breaking backwards compat, no
18:12 #wayland: < orowith2os> why not? can't you just bump the interface version and add some more arguments?
18:12 #wayland: < orowith2os> clients binding to version 1 would still get their current behavior, version 2 can just use extra bits and it gets treated as a bitfield instead of an enum
18:12 #wayland: < zamundaaa[m]> values 1, 2, 3 have overlapping bits
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18:13 #wayland: < orowith2os> you can't use some bitwise operators to extract those and treat those as an enum?
18:16 #wayland: < orowith2os> if a client tried passing anything outside of value 3 right now, they would most likely get a protocol error, and if you bumped the interface version and added extra bit values a compositor would have to know how to handle those extra bits appropriately to be able to upgrade to v2 anyways 
18:17 #wayland: < oeuaoeuoeu[m]> You can just add a new request and a new enum.
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18:18 #wayland: < orowith2os> I suppose. I mostly ask in this way because I could keep it all in one enum, especially on the mutter side, for a content-type-v2 if it was a weirdly defined bitfield 
18:18 #wayland: < orowith2os> (er, not v2, but interface version 2.)
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18:32 #wayland: < linkmauve> orowith2os, the original idea of wp_content_type_v1 was to be able to map 1:1 with HDMI and DRM, which can’t represent two content types at once.
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18:33 #wayland: < orowith2os> yeah, I noticed that when implementing it. It does seem to be a generic enough protocol that it wouldn't be unreasonable to add on content types like "presentation" though
18:34 #wayland: < orowith2os> (and "presentation" itself isn't mutually exclusive with "photo" or "video")
18:35 #wayland: < linkmauve> orowith2os, over HDMI, wouldn’t that become photo (for static content) or video (when displaying a video)?
18:35 #wayland: < linkmauve> The client can change the content type at any frame.
18:37 #wayland: < linkmauve> Speaking of which, why is there no graphics enum value?
18:37 #wayland: < linkmauve> /* Content type options */
18:37 #wayland: < linkmauve> #define DRM_MODE_CONTENT_TYPE_NO_DATA           0
18:37 #wayland: < linkmauve> #define DRM_MODE_CONTENT_TYPE_GRAPHICS          1
18:37 #wayland: < linkmauve> #define DRM_MODE_CONTENT_TYPE_PHOTO             2
18:37 #wayland: < linkmauve> #define DRM_MODE_CONTENT_TYPE_CINEMA            3
18:37 #wayland: < linkmauve> #define DRM_MODE_CONTENT_TYPE_GAME              4
18:38 #wayland: < linkmauve> From drm/drm_mode.h.
18:38 #wayland: < orowith2os> the compositor gets to decide NO_DATA or GRAPHICS I think?
18:38 #wayland: < orowith2os> GRAPHICS usually hints that it's a PC, and that can change the display policies to maybe something undesirable (as I've seen in the past in similar situations fiddling with settings)
18:39 #wayland: < zamundaaa[m]> linkmauve: because I decided mapping / tying it to drm wouldn't be overly useful
18:40 #wayland: < zamundaaa[m]> and "graphics" wasn't meaningful
18:41 #wayland: < orowith2os> content-type wouldn't have any use in exposing GRAPHICS anyways 
18:41 #wayland: < oeuaoeuoeu[m]> Am I supposed to map video to cinema? What if I'm watching kino?
18:43 #wayland: < oeuaoeuoeu[m]> If you add a new bitfield, make sure to distinguish between the different types of moving pictures.
18:43 #wayland: < orowith2os> what is kino?
18:44 #wayland: < oeuaoeuoeu[m]> https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/253/772/426.png
18:44 #wayland: < orowith2os> also note that these map to HDMI content types, so anything on top of what content-type currently exposes is more or less just for window management policies and the like
18:45 #wayland: < zamundaaa[m]> As I already said, the protocol was (mostly) not about forwarding it to the drm property
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18:46 #wayland: < zamundaaa[m]> It's about letting the compositor do more stuff. Prioritizing surfaces for overlays and vrr, change which filters are used for scaling surfaces, that sort of thing
18:47 #dri-devel: < orowith2os> not sure if the bridge is sending my messages over; test?
18:47 #dri-devel: < orowith2os> aye, we're good
18:47 #dri-devel: < orowith2os> mkay
18:47 #dri-devel: < orowith2os> just checking
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19:17 #dri-devel: < bl4ckb0ne> is GL_EXT_window_rectangles missing from features.txt? There's some mentions of implementation in the release notes but thats all I can find
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19:30 #freedesktop: < rodrigovivi> daniels: I recently have commiters complaining that their changes are not replicated to drm-tip after pushing to drm-xe-next... one of them noticed that dim seems to fail silently when pushing to drm-tip: https://paste.debian.net/hidden/233727ee   likely lack of permission on the drm-tip side...  should I ask them to file a gitlab issue against freedesktop?
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20:43 #dri-devel: < zmike> lots of stuff is missing from features.txt
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20:59 #nouveau: < SolidSnake_> BJ i'm new, nouveau
20:59 #nouveau: < SolidSnake_> anything specific i should know ?
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21:01 #nouveau: < SolidSnake_> my forte> smb:// and natural languages
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21:20 #dri-devel: < bl4ckb0ne> it looks like its supported on every driver though
21:21 #dri-devel: < karolherbst> I wished we'd have a way to automatically generate that file
21:21 #dri-devel: < karolherbst> which... shouldn't be _that_ difficult tho..
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21:40 #freedesktop: < rodrigovivi> https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/xdg/xdg-specs/-/work_items/275
21:40 #dri-devel: < austriancoder> I think that is impossible to generate them, as you need actual hw data from e.g. CI DUTs
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21:53 #dri-devel: < Hazematman> Wasn't there a discussion at one point about generating them from DRM shim drivers?
21:53 #dri-devel: < Hazematman> I think it can be done but maybe not perfectly still
21:59 #dri-devel: < austriancoder> that could work
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