14:54wlb: weston Issue #762 opened by Vincent Miles (shacabau) Multiple applications sharing same monito https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/weston/-/issues/762
19:21akik: hi, xwayland acts as a seamless x11 server on wayland. is it possible to use weston in a similar fashion on xorg? i.e. i could run wayland apps seamlessly through weston?
19:22kennylevinsen: akik: no, but there is no technical reason that one could not write the opposite of Xwayland, and I would assume that it would be much easier and less error-prone to do.
19:23akik: kennylevinsen: there's no program currently that would do it?
19:25kennylevinsen: note that yuo can run many Wayland servers nested (i.e., as a window) under X11, but that's not "seamless"
19:26kennylevinsen: akik: no, I doubt anyone has felt a need for it. The number of people wanting to use X11 for their desktop environment, but also wanting to run Wayland-only applications is for now probably quite few.
19:26kennylevinsen: As most applications also have X11 support
19:28akik: i still hear wine/proton games work better with xorg
19:28kennylevinsen: At least for now, but that might of course change - in which case, feel free to start such project. My I suggest naming it "Worg"? or "waylandX"? :)
19:28akik: i don't know if those people used xwayland
19:28akik: :) i'm no programmer, just a linux user
19:29kennylevinsen: steam is often used in conjunction with gamescope for a better experience, which is actually a Wayland compositor using Xwayland
19:30akik: ok thanks for the info
19:40akik: kennylevinsen: arch wiki says: "Currently it does not have native support for Wayland clients [1] and on a Wayland session it will use XWayland.
19:40akik: kennylevinsen: i mean gamescope
19:40akik: kennylevinsen: so is it only for x11 apps?
19:45kennylevinsen: gamescope is a Wayland server which for now is only meant to run X11 apps through Xwayland (because pretty much all games are X11 right now)
19:45kennylevinsen: it's specialized for running games
19:46kennylevinsen: gamescope itself can run either under Wayland, X11 or directly on drm/kms ("bare metal") in order to show you said X11 game
19:46akik: thanks really helpful info
19:48vbt: hey, i came across https://lobste.rs/s/3bdlpn/thread_on_deterioration_accessibility which discusses accessibility in wayland.
19:49vbt: so, question is that how can we improve accessibility in wayland?
19:51kennylevinsen: "how to make XYZ better?" is an extremely vague question. Start by understanding the usecase, then understand the shortcomings, then suggest improvements.
19:52vbt: But,i asked "How to make ABC in XYZ better?" though
19:54kennylevinsen: same thing
19:56vbt: ok. let me rephrase otherwise. what would it take for wayland to support screenreaders like orca better?
19:59kennylevinsen: that is an easier question - a screen reader would need to access the text either through an a11y side channel (e.g., some dbus API), or through a new Wayland protocol to allow text inspection to privileged clients.
20:00kennylevinsen: either way, it is cooperative - both the application being read and the reader needs to talk to each other
20:02kennylevinsen: Without, the only output from an application is rendered pixels - screen recording and running OCR is not a great option
20:03kennylevinsen: but having experience *using* accessibility with other platforms (including X11), and how they work, would be useful to discussions
20:04kennylevinsen: many have never used accessibility features and are blind (no pun intended) to available technologies and their issues
20:18qyliss: that side channel already exists, right? and is independent of X/Wayland IIRC
20:19qyliss: the two complaints in the linked thread are that Orca on Wayland crashes when trying to do mouse emulation, and that Orca can't interact with the clipboard, because it doesn't have a window
20:19qyliss: so one fairly obvious thing to be done to make Wayland accessibility better would be to fix that Orca bug
20:21qyliss: the clipboard one is more complicated