02:42 unrealapex: hello
02:43 unrealapex: is there similar programs wayland users use like startx to start a wayland compositor with applications like xinitrc?
02:47 soreau: Typically in wayland, the compositor starts the apps. A start up script for wayland might include setting environment variables and such before starting the compositor
02:48 unrealapex: that's interesting, i guess i would need to configure that for dwl
02:48 unrealapex: this is my second day trying out wayland, is there anything else useful you think i should know that differs from xorg?
02:49 soreau: in X, the display server is X and it interfaces with a window manager in most cases. In wayland, the compositor is the display server and window manager in one process
02:50 unrealapex: wlroots, hyperland, etc... are all implementations of the wayland protocol correct?
02:52 soreau: that's not technically correct, libwayland is an implementation of the wayland core protocol and allows for other custom protocols to be used, but yes, wlroots uses wayland
02:53 unrealapex: so wayland compositors all build on top of libwayland?
02:53 soreau: loosely speaking, yes
02:54 soreau: not sure what smithay does with rust..
02:54 danie1dg: they're all implementations of wayland servers
02:54 unrealapex: i forgot there's documentation, for wayland on the freedesktop website, my appologies for not checking that before hand :(
02:54 soreau: yes, what danie1dg said is more accurate
02:54 unrealapex: ah i see
02:55 danieldg: smithay implements the wayland protocol itself, but can interface with at least libwayland-client so that it can use vulkan (or other GPU libraries) that depend on it
02:56 soreau: yea, so that's one of the oddballs
02:56 soreau: I also seem to recall arcan or somesuch?
02:56 unrealapex: what wms do you two use?
02:56 danieldg: technically there's no reason you can't just speak the wayland protocol yourself, just like you can speak HTTP yourself instead of using libcurl
02:56 soreau: unrealapex: I use wayfire
02:56 unrealapex: i'm guessing smithay is just the building blocks for anyone who wants to write a rust wayland compositor?
02:56 danieldg: but if you wnat to use the GPU you'll usually end up having it do that for you
02:57 soreau: yes
02:57 unrealapex: it has some interesting animations
02:58 danieldg: I use sway because I don't care about animations
02:58 unrealapex: what terminal emulator do you use?
02:58 soreau: many people use wayfire and just turn off all the candy effects
02:58 soreau: it has plugins so you just don't load what you don't want
02:59 soreau: but I can't say I haven't written a few animations for wayfire myself :)
02:59 unrealapex: danieldg: what makes sway special?
02:59 soreau: unrealapex: I use any terminal emulator that works
02:59 soreau: sway is special because it's catered to by the wlroots devs
03:00 danieldg: unrealapex: tiling
03:00 soreau: wlroots and sway have the same core group of developers
03:00 soreau: so it works with latest wlroots and in theory, it's more stable
03:01 soreau: and FWIW, wayfire has a tiling plugin
03:01 soreau: it's certainly not sway tiling caps though
03:02 danieldg: at the moment it's inertia too, I have scripts to rearrange windows and so forth that I'd need to rewrite if I switched compositors
03:03 soreau: yea, that's the trick - wayland compsitors are kinda like X wm's, they each have their own strengths, weaknesses and ways of doing things
03:04 unrealapex: danieldg: oh it's basically i3
03:05 unrealapex: soreau: i'm searching for something akin to st, are there any wayland terminal emulators like it?
03:08 soreau: I'm not familiar with 'st'
03:09 danieldg: I use alacritty, some people like foot, some like kitty
03:13 soreau: you can also run x11 apps in wayland using xwayland
03:13 soreau: so maybe 'st' will justwork
07:56 wlb: wayland-protocols Merge request !357 opened by () ext-ei-session-v1: Add new protocol https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland-protocols/-/merge_requests/357
08:44 wlb: wayland-protocols Merge request !358 opened by () build: Raise required wayland-scanner version to 1.23.0 https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland-protocols/-/merge_requests/358
14:16 zzxyb[m]: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/xyba/wayland/-/commit/b7fbe44b5d774e00ca759c726b8092f51c14cefc change debug level at runtime
14:43 davidre: Why are people arguing so heated in the wine shell issue without there being any details at all what it could possibly contain
14:43 davidre: Is tit some plane to prove people right about wayland-protocols?
14:43 davidre: See we can even argue about nothing
14:44 ofourdan: hehe
14:44 MrCooper: doesn't seem all that heated so far
14:46 davidre: to me it read very invested by some
14:46 ofourdan: my take is that it could potentially allow for things that Wayland has tried to avoid so far, and that makes people nervous.
14:47 davidre: That's the thing I have no idea what it would be?
14:47 feaneron: wine shell issue?
14:47 davidre: To me the issue is: I heard wine devs say this would be needed
14:47 davidre: "but no idea on detaisl"
14:47 MrCooper: it does have a certain "add things through the back door which were left out on purpose" vibe
14:48 davidre: For me I would be interested to hear first whhich pain points they have
14:48 davidre: feaneron: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland-protocols/-/issues/225
14:49 ofourdan: I suspect things like global coordonates, the win32 API has that, so if someone wants to be able to emulate win32 on Wayland (without using X11/Xwayland), it will likely be needed…
14:49 davidre: if the issue is "wine needs to make setWindowPosition(x, y) from win api work" there oculd be arguing that it would maybe not needed as so far all other toolkits also get away with that not working
14:50 davidre: i.e. emulation is good enough even if you cant place a window on a certain position on screen
14:51 davidre: compared to if you dont implement "drawButton"
14:53 MrCooper: completely agree, unfortunately some can't seem to accept anything short of 100% compatibility (the fact that's probably unrealistic anyway notwithstanding)
14:53 davidre: gamescope wanting to know the win32 window type is something probably less controversial
14:54 davidre: and similar how the compositor has for example access to x window type (by it being a x window manager) to allow for better window managment
14:54 davidre: But at this point there is no info on which direction the idea went
14:55 daniels: wine people are going to look at it and provide some useful direction at some point
14:55 davidre: I was just surprised that people did not wait for that before discussion went that direction :)
14:55 feaneron: win32 window type maps to some well known concept already?
14:58 feaneron: hm, i guess these will be https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/winmsg/window-styles
15:01 davidre: gamescope seems to know more than windows https://github.com/ValveSoftware/gamescope/blob/056b79e5f8a40568bb7e7927ce77868f243a3d3e/src/win32_styles.h
15:02 davidre: *microsoft documentation
15:03 davidre: I guess these in addition https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/winmsg/extended-window-styles
15:15 ofourdan: that recurring quetion about global coordinates in Wayland, that reminds me of something a manager in a previous job use to joke with, "tell me what you want, and I'll tell you how to do without it"…
15:17 ofourdan: (that's meant a a joke, before anyone goes ballistic on me… ^_~)
15:17 davidre: I know it as X Y Problem
15:18 davidre: Asking about X when you do want to achieve Y
15:22 mclasen: ofourdan: if only it was funny :/
15:55 DemiMarie: David Redondo: If I made a mistake in filing the issue without knowing details, just tell me.
16:08 daniels: it just needs to stay something with good signal, rather than a complete cesspool of 'well I have no idea what this is about or why but I sure do have opinions'
16:11 MrCooper: davidre: "X Y Problem" is eerily fitting for global coordinates :)
16:12 daniels: Wayland banned Z as a security issue
21:27 bluetail: no Z coordinate?