15:17fufexan: Hello! Is there anyone whom I can talk to about having Hyprland join wayland-protocols? Considering it's the third most used wayland environment on Fedora (based on a recent survey on its subreddit), is fully independent and has an entire ecosystem, I believe it deserves its own seat in wayland-protocols.
15:18fufexan: I am one of the members of the HyprWM organization and we have talked about this internally.
15:19bl4ckb0ne: create a merge request on wayland-protocols with the `governance:` tag and discussion will happen there
15:19bl4ckb0ne: see https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland-protocols/-/merge_requests/366 for ref
15:21fufexan: in https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland-protocols/-/blob/main/GOVERNANCE.md?ref_type=heads#12-becoming-a-member it says that I first have to reach out to an existing member
15:24bl4ckb0ne: yes, you have to find a sponsor
15:24fufexan: right, is there anyone open to talk about sponsoring?
15:25dviola: wouldn't Vaxri being banned from freedesktop affect that in some way?
15:26dviola: Vaxry*
15:26bl4ckb0ne: vaxry doesnt have to be the point of contact
15:26fufexan: I'm positive that it does not affect the eligiblity of the entire organization, considering it's only one person
15:27dviola: I see
15:28emersion: i'd recommend starting to get involved in protocol development before asking for a seat
15:29fufexan: vaxry used to be involved before he got banned lol
15:29bl4ckb0ne: but you're not vaxry
15:32daniels: yeah, the ideal scenario is that you get involved and help out: not just shoving your own protocols through, but review submissions from others and help improve them, then someone asks you to vote on something, you say that you aren't a member, everyone's surprised to remember that, and then the vote is a pile of instant '+1 yeah they're really helpful', instead of just coming in cold
15:32fufexan: yes, but membership is extended to projects, not individuals. so it should still count
15:32daniels: I mean, the MRs and issues are open; there is nothing stopping you from contributing already
15:32daniels: (and there are plenty of MRs and issues which need active help)
15:35wlb: weston Merge request !1663 opened by () desktop-shell: Fix background image https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/weston/-/merge_requests/1663 [Desktop shell]
15:42fufexan: the members that would be added by https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland-protocols/-/merge_requests/366 don't seem to have been very active, and yet they got a sponsor and an ACK. what differentiates them from Hyprland?
15:43bl4ckb0ne: well, as you can see there's only a single ACK from the sponsor for the moment
15:44bl4ckb0ne: as we told you, once you get a sponsor you're free to open a similar MR
15:44bl4ckb0ne: but like daniels said, coming in cold is not gonna give you heaps of +1s and ACKs
15:45wlb: weston/main: Derek Foreman * desktop-shell: Fix background image https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/weston/commit/5b35631545f0 clients/desktop-shell.c
15:45fufexan: alright, thanks
15:46wlb: weston Merge request !1663 merged \o/ (desktop-shell: Fix background image https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/weston/-/merge_requests/1663)
15:47fufexan: if anyone wants to talk about sponsoring anyway, feel free to message me
15:48pq: I don't recall we needed much acks in accepting a new member?
15:48davidre: yes
15:48davidre:sent a code block: https://matrix.org/oftc/media/v1/media/download/AS_3T3_LbNhwIXQ8SkqnRHVj5A-22Nad7s-1ZYuoUDhU895bifmitoqVcXr_DLWqaEfT079EJhkAXxelph5VWb5CeUHWfz1wAG1hdHJpeC5vcmcvZ0dFQlJXY1dDQUhUdmpqSGJzbllGZ056
15:49davidre: so tomorrow they should be new members
15:58pq: indeed
16:00pq: emersion, while I agree with your comment in !366, we'd need a majority vote of NAKs to delay it, and that seems to me unlikely and very harsh. What could be done is to propose changes to the new member acceptance criteria which would come into effect a month from now earliest.
16:01emersion: yeah, i don't want to NACK either
16:01emersion: i wanted to type this up but then i got distracted with other stuff :/
16:02emersion: so indeed, this comes a bit late as well
16:03emersion: also, i don't want to gatekeep membership too much
16:03emersion: the current policy is nice in that rejecting membership needs a lot of active participationg from other members
16:04pq: maybe what we need is rules for inactive members
16:04emersion: def don't want to make it too easy to discard a membership proposal
16:04emersion: right, imho there are two issues: inactivity, and trust
16:05emersion: if a complete stranger asks for membership, it's a bit surprising to me
16:05pq: perhaps, or perhaps they are not strangers to the sponsor
16:06nickdiego|backjan02[m]: Hey, thanks for your feedback there emersion! It might be me misunderstanding the docs, though I initially thought the points of contact there would be more kind of a member-related choice than a community well known person. Is that more like a personal interpretation you have about it or a general consensus? If the latter, should we document it better? Furthermore, our idea (from chromium side) would be to rotate internally to
16:06nickdiego|backjan02[m]: devote enough time to protocols contributions, so the poc there would be more symbolic the a pratical thing.
16:07pq: as for inactivity, maybe something about pinging for voting and not getting any reply?
16:07emersion: nickdiego|backjan02[m]: in general members are pinged for voting and such in technical matters
16:08davidre: nickdiego | back jan/02: I think the the point here is that the points of contact carry the actual power - saying Nack/ack/rev-by
16:08emersion: but i must admit that we really must do better in terms of documentation here
16:11pq: I think the points of contact could be just a front who relay all topics to some internal body actually making decisions, relays the results back, but it does complicate and slow down communication.
16:12pq: But if project (a company?) wants to work like that, why not?
16:16nickdiego|backjan02[m]: pq: Yeah, that's how I see it too pq, especially because communities have distinct ways of working and sometimes rotation is required/natural depending on how that interacts with a particular project. Though I also agree it might slow things down a bit
16:16pq: for bigger projects it kinda has to work like that if they haven't invested the power onto one or two people, and even so, those people may want to consult others
16:21nickdiego|backjan02[m]: emersion: we could start with those PoC, or I could even add myself there and after holidays we could revisit it, plmk what sounds more reasonable to you.
17:00wlb: wayland Issue #514 opened by () os-wrappers-test and sanity-test programs have missing dependency on exec-fd-leak-checker https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland/-/issues/514
17:03wlb: wayland Issue #515 opened by () `wayland-egl symbols check` test has missing dependency on https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/wayland/wayland/-/issues/515
18:20emersion: pq: but that's not how e.g. kernel maintainers would work for instance
18:20emersion: i really see value in having a direct line of communication with a knowledgeable person, instead of a proxy
18:20emersion: especially when it takes time for someone to get to know a project
18:23emersion: pq: some members on w-p have a PoC with a "front" and it doesn't work really well imho
18:23emersion: these members are mostly in the "inactive" category
18:24emersion: nickdiego|backjan02[m]: out of curiosity, do you have plans to upstream more protocols?
18:36ifreund: part of zmike's governance reforms was making it possible for projects to have more than 2 points of contact right?
18:37ifreund: with the reasoning being that having a few points of contact being inactive isn't a problem if there are 10 of them
19:16nickdiego|backjan02[m]: <emersion> "nickdiego | back jan/02: out..." <- I can't speak on behalf of the whole project, but the idea is at least to contribute from the perspective of the brower as a platform/toolkit for web app developers. There are probably protocols which were designed for Lacros (discontinued now), which could be upstreamed at some point. Lately we've been actively involved in at least 3 fronts, text-input, desktop features such as
19:16nickdiego|backjan02[m]: toplevel-drag/session management/picture-in-picture and test automation, afaict
19:52emersion: cool, thanks
19:53emersion: these last 3 fronts we def need any help we can get :)
19:53emersion: nickdiego|backjan02[m]: my own preference would be to update the folks as they are rotated
19:54emersion: it should be relatively easy to update MEMBERS.md
19:54emersion: that said, some others seem to be fine with "front" p-o-c